The Dangers of Giving Away Equity With Chris Botvidson

Chris [: 00:00:00

It's also really damn tricky, dude. Like, I lost my ass on hiring a salesperson, like, right in the COVID times.

James [: 00:00:10

Mhmm.

Chris [: 00:00:11

Like, I mean, he came in, guns blazing. I'm badass. I know what the hell I'm doing. And, You know, $35 and base salary later, he didn't bring in a single deal. Oh, wow. So, like, You just there's risk in everything. You know? And so just because you get a loan and you can pay somebody, it doesn't mean they're gonna bring in money. Mhmm.

James [: 00:00:42

Welcome to Business Blind Spot's podcast where we talk to founders, entrepreneurs, CEOs, and business leaders About their journey to build their business, build their brand, and we like to learn about problems they face, challenges they've overcome, And how they do business based on that moving forward. Today's guest is Chris Botfison. He's a founder of Fuel and Spark Media. How are you doing? Doing awesome.

Chris [: 00:01:07

Thanks for having me. Appreciate it.

James [: 00:01:09

Absolutely. Absolutely. I know you have an interesting story, and I hope that we get to learn some really cool stuff from you.

Chris [: 00:01:15

Yeah. It's a journey. It's been a journey for sure. Yeah.

James [: 00:01:19

Good to have a fellow salt and pepper man on the on the show too.

Chris [: 00:01:23

Yeah. It Started coming in a while back. Yeah.

James [: 00:01:26

Why don't you just start by telling us how you grew up, where you grew up, where'd you go to school, and, how you became a founder.

Chris [: 00:01:35

Alright. Yeah. So I grew up here, in the suburbs of Fort Worth, Texas. So Lived in Hurston, Keller and went to Keller High School. Went to college at Texas State University and got a degree in communication design. And that's where, I guess, I kind of got my Entrance into the creative field. So communication design is basically a degree in graphic arts and advertising. And so, graduated from there, bounced around the entry level positions and got some jobs here and there and, was freelancing at some different agencies and things like that.

Chris [: 00:02:27

And I freelanced at a small design firm where I was able to actually, like, learn a lot more about the business as a whole versus just the, the creative part of it. Mhmm. And my dad has been an entrepreneur my whole life, and So I guess I just, for some reason, felt like I can do it on my own. Mhmm. And so I did. I You know? Once I left that position and I was freelancing with some of the bigger agencies, I learned a lot there as well, but, I just, You know, started slowly building up my client list, then I got a part time job, and at the same time, was building up my clients. And Finally, got to a point to where I was able to pull the plug and, like, do my own thing full time and Jumped in headfirst, was naive and broke and didn't know what the hell I was doing.

James [: 00:03:26

Wait. You were broke as a young Entrepreneur?

Chris [: 00:03:29

Oh, yeah. Shocker. Yeah.

James [: 00:03:32

Recurring theme here.

Chris [: 00:03:33

Yeah. Recurring theme. Right? And And so, yeah, I was just kinda, like, started, hustling and knocking out work and building a name for myself. Got a little office over off West 7th Street in Fort Worth and started building up a good network there and started getting some clients that were paying the bills and paying rent and doing those things. And, Then I brought on a business partner, I think in 2013 or something like that. And that partnership lasted about of 5 years, and it actually was, extremely valuable, you know, to help get Us, like, really established in Fort Worth, in our own backyard here. We, my business partner, Chuck, and I parted ways, but we're still it was amicable, and we're buddies, and we'll still have a an old fashioned or a couple beers here and there. And so I would say that, you know, like, things were Going pretty well, but we were getting to a point to where we were just while the Top line revenue was growing.

Chris [: 00:04:49

Mhmm. Like, our profit margins weren't really growing. Mhmm. And we were grinding our asses off, You know? And we're making a paycheck, but it wasn't like we were bringing we weren't getting we weren't doing

James [: 00:05:03

No no private jet money?

Chris [: 00:05:05

No private jet money. Still no private jet money. Maybe one day. But, yeah, it's just kind of we Started growing, and we started saying and we were saying yes to everyone and, started just kind of expanding our services to a point where it was just became a lot to manage. After Chuck and I parted ways in 2018, after a couple of years, you know, like, managing the whole thing on my own. And I think that's one of the things too about a business partnership or, like, any relationship is, like, You don't really know, like, what the other person was was really like, how valuable they were, or it's like Mhmm. You don't miss it until you don't have it. Yeah.

Chris [: 00:05:45

You know? Yeah. And so when I was responsible for operations and getting shit out the door and managing our team and sales and networking and all that, it became a lot. But then, you know, after a couple of years of doing that, we decided that, we were gonna regroup and rebrand our company and really, like, scale down our service offerings. Like, we changed the name of the company and everything, because we were just tired of the grind, you know, when it wasn't really that all lucrative. And so That decision was made to form a company to focus on content creation, video production, animation, and social media marketing and advertising campaigns. We we're doing some of that stuff, and that was the stuff that we enjoyed the most that we're getting the best results for our clients. Mhmm. So we decided to make we kinda, like, burn the ship, so to speak.

Chris [: 00:06:45

You know? I love it. Yeah. We'd burn the ships and start it over, and it just so happened that the timing of that was pretty shitty, because we did that in the decision was made to do that in late 2019, and we launched the new company in March of 2020.

James [: 00:07:09

Oh, that sounds familiar. So,

Chris [: 00:07:14

we grinded and grinded and got through COVID and, You know? Got luckily, the PPP money and some of those things, like, helped get us through. We survived, and now we're in a position to where we're ready to really take this thing to the next level?

James [: 00:07:34

That's a lot to unpack. Sorry. I went a lot of questions.

Chris [: 00:07:38

Me for my whole

James [: 00:07:38

life stories. But yeah.

Chris [: 00:07:39

So website and social. Yeah.

James [: 00:07:42

I have a ton of questions. Okay. So you're a freelancing, so, essentially, 10/99. So what was that thought process outside of, like, hey. I've I've saw my dad be successful. I know I can be successful as an entrepreneur. Did you do a lot of planning? Was there a lot of preparation, or was it just go for it once your book was big enough? Your client book.

Chris [: 00:08:04

I I mean, I think I think part of it was naivety in stupidity and Mhmm. Like, saying, I can

James [: 00:08:14

I didn't I didn't agree with you so because I think you're not even stupid? I mean,

Chris [: 00:08:19

It's like

James [: 00:08:19

That's entrepreneur traits

Chris [: 00:08:21

to some point.

James [: 00:08:22

I mean, it has to be. Well, when

Chris [: 00:08:23

you know, I think I was, oh, gosh. Yeah. Like, 20 6 or 27 at the time or something like that. And I was like, man, if this guy can do it, I can fucking do this. You know? Like, how hard can it be? And then, you know, get into business. And then I was like, oh, I gotta meet with an accountant, And I gotta set up a s corp. What is that? And I'm paying rent on and off the space, and then, like, I start getting, like, things from Texas Workforce Commission and, like, all these taxes and all these things. And I'm like, dude, I I realized, like, pretty quickly, like, I did not know what I was getting myself into.

Chris [: 00:09:08

Like, and that's one of the reasons why I kind of volunteer for, for an organization that helps, like startups and entrepreneurs get started because I had no idea what I didn't know.

James [: 00:09:23

Did you have a a mentor Outside of your father?

Chris [: 00:09:27

Not really. You know? I I just, like, I just thought I I knew what I was doing, and I thought I could do it. And So I it was just straight up hustle, mother. Like, I was not charging enough. You know? Like Classic. All that, Same stuff. But, you know, over time, I I have done some amazing programs that have helped me become a more Well rounded entrepreneur, to join the EO Accelerator program and then recently did the Goldman Sachs 10 k small business program. And Some of these things have, like, really, you know, like, sharpened my knife, so to speak, as far as my skill set goes running a business.

Chris [: 00:10:10

But in the beginning, man, it's you don't know what you don't know. Mhmm. And it's tough.

James [: 00:10:17

So would you say you made a misstep every single day, as as a a young founder?

Chris [: 00:10:24

No. I That

James [: 00:10:24

was that was a joke.

Chris [: 00:10:25

I was teasing. I wouldn't say I misstep every single day, but I would say that I wish that I had, reached out and gotten a mentor, or been aware of some more of the resources that were out there. Mhmm. But, You know? We we were able to make it, and I've been surviving on my own since Yeah. 20 2008, pretty much. And so I haven't had a an actual job since then.

James [: 00:10:59

So So so you mentioned getting a business partner. So what was that process like For you, how did you decide on who to go into business with?

Chris [: 00:11:07

I was getting burned out because I was doing everything myself. And I was basically like, if I want to build a business, I need help. Mhmm. Like, I need somebody right there alongside me who's willing to hustle with me. Mhmm. You know? And I I kinda made that decision of, like, I either need to find somebody and, get help, or I need to just relegate myself to just being a freelancer, you know, and, like, not worry about building an actual, like, company.

James [: 00:11:43

Yeah.

Chris [: 00:11:43

You know? Because I was just burned out. And one of my clients at the time, actually, he was just we hit it off. We established a great working relationship. I helped him rebrand his company. He was a chief operations officer and head of marketing at the company he was working for, help them rename their company, develop logos and branding and web and all that kind of stuff. And Through that process, I we got really tight, and, he was kinda getting tired of the industry that he was in. And Mhmm. I said, look, man.

Chris [: 00:12:20

He I'd love for you to come on board as a 5050 partner, and, like, let's just try to blow this thing up. And, he came on board. And, honestly, like, for all of the difference we differences that we had, that was probably One of the best moves I actually ever made was, like, bringing him on because, after A month or 2 of, like, us getting acclimated with each other, then he just went out and started, like, hustling business and, like, bringing it in. And I was, able to then, like, make it all happen and execute, and it it worked really well.

James [: 00:13:00

So you guys established your own roles within the business pretty quickly?

Chris [: 00:13:04

Yeah. Pretty quickly. I think it it took a little while. And, Chuck at the time, he wasn't He didn't consider himself like a salesperson because he was, like, in this operations role. I'm like, dude, you our natural born salesperson. Get out there. He's I was like, I don't even give a shit, like, if you step foot in the office, like, at all. Just like we need work coming in.

Chris [: 00:13:30

And he took that to heart, man, and he ran with it, and it was awesome.

James [: 00:13:36

Outside salespeople should never be in the office more than 1 day a week. Hey. That's my philosophy. Yeah. But, okay. So you mentioned You brought him on, and then you started doing a bunch of, different product offerings. Mhmm. So can you elaborate on that? What were you doing when he came on, And what were the new product offerings?

Chris [: 00:13:54

You know, we were we didn't really increase our product offerings till a couple of years later, but at the time, We were doing a lot of graphic design work. Web design was a big part of what we were doing, and it it was a weird time in that kinda game because, you know, it was this whole responsive design thing. And it it was a difficult business to make money in when you were doing web design, like, to be profitable. But we got there, and we started doing it. And so, yeah, just a lot of graphic design, a lot of branding work, brand messaging, website design, and all that kind of stuff. After a while, that led more into more, like full service marketing. Because

James [: 00:14:40

Mhmm.

Chris [: 00:14:40

Then once somebody has their brand and their website in place, then you gotta promote it, and market it. And so then we started getting into email marketing, social media marketing, Google Ads, and, like, all that kind of stuff.

James [: 00:14:54

So who is making the decision to to start that new offering? Was it you, or was it Chuck?

Chris [: 00:15:00

It just happened. It it just happened kind of almost organically. And it it really started with existing clients saying, hey. Can you do this for us? And us saying, sure. Yeah. We can do that. And then going back and figuring out putting the pieces together to make it work.

James [: 00:15:20

So one of the tough things, in my experience as a as a business owner in the past is having to recognize when, a, you're overextended, Or, b, you're in a wrong market. Right? Like like, the idea of the market is better than the actual market itself. So what was that process like for you, and how those conversations, with Chuck go.

Chris [: 00:15:43

It was good. So in the beginning, we were in a market that was really tough to make money at. Because web design, like, while, like, the budgets are pretty good, The expenses are a lot too. Like, when you're doing custom development, you gotta, like, start from The idea, the copywriting in all the pages, the content, the design, and then you gotta pay a developer to, like, put it all together and code it and do all that. So we were getting really good at it, but we weren't making money. And then, honestly, like, By the time that we started, like, getting it pretty dialed in to where we were making pretty margins and all that is the time that we were just like or I personally was like, I'm I'm burn I'm so burned out. I don't ever wanna, like, Touch another website project again. I'm over it.

Chris [: 00:16:40

You know? So it's like it's kinda weird because once we kinda got it all figured out was whenever it was like, I don't We don't wanna and this was, like, kind of, like, after Chuck and I parted ways, and we fit it was like, I just don't. It's too time consuming. It's too tedious. It's too much project management. Mhmm. And that's the thing too is, like, the more services you offer, The more processes there are Mhmm. The more difficult it is for 1 person to manage all of these different things unless you wanna pay them, you know, $150 a year or whatever, which we weren't able to do. And so it was just It just got to be too much.

James [: 00:17:26

So what was that conversation like, with Chuck?

Chris [: 00:17:30

So Chuck and I, You know? Our run lasted about a solid 5 years, but there was there were some Issues that we had, kinda some philosophical issues, and, I don't know. There were just some things that we didn't see completely eye to eye on. And

James [: 00:17:54

Like, biz business philosophy?

Chris [: 00:17:55

Yeah. Business philosophy fee and just, you know, I think some underlying things. And so we just kinda mutually decided. You know? It's about time.

James [: 00:18:05

See, I think it'd be really valuable for a young entrepreneur, young founder to hear how you approach those conversations, because people today, In my experience, a lot of people are scared to have confrontational conversations about disagreements and and differences in philosophy.

Chris [: 00:18:24

I wish I could say it was, totally smooth. But

James [: 00:18:28

Oh, that's the whole point of the podcast is that it wasn't smooth.

Chris [: 00:18:31

It gets Heated. You know? And but at the end of the day, when we decided and we we had the conversations because we were like, look. We're we can't just keep, like, tugging against each other. You know? They were when we're in front of clients we're doing pitches, and we're doing all that stuff. We were working pretty well together. You know? But, like, then when we were coming back, it's like, I really think we should be doing this over here, and he's like, I don't Really feel comfortable. I don't wanna do that. And so some of those types of I without getting into too many details, right, out of respect to Chuck and everything.

Chris [: 00:19:08

But, it just got to a point to where we had the conversation. And most of the time, it was, you know, over some beers. And then when we got to the point to where we decided, like, hey. Like, we're parting ways. I just feel lucky in the fact that we were able to just, like, hash everything out.

James [: 00:19:31

Mhmm.

Chris [: 00:19:32

You know? Like, here's what this is gonna look like. Here's what the buyout's gonna look like. Here's what the percentage split's gonna be. Here, we just we went to we got, like, a an evaluation or evaluation on the company. And So we by the time we went to the attorneys to, like, draw up all the buyout paperwork and all of that stuff, we just told them what we wanted to do. You know? They're it

James [: 00:20:00

was a lot of money, I bet.

Chris [: 00:20:01

Saved a lot of money, but I I just like, I I feel blessed in that way because some of those things can get pretty ugly. And we were able to work through it pretty well and come up to a mutual fast. Yeah. And we were able to work in a mutual agreement. I say when we parted ways, you know, there for a while, like, we Kept our distance from each other for a while, but now I have a ton of respect from Chuck. And then, You know? Like, looking back, you know, there's a lot of times where I wish I still had him around, honestly. Mhmm.

James [: 00:20:36

So Interesting. Yeah. So so if, someone is getting ready to have to address that sort of situation in their business, what advice based on Your experience, what advice would you have for them? Because it's just the facts are the facts. Right? Those things are just gonna turn hairy. That's just how they how they are, especially if it ends up that you guys had a 5 year run and it's essentially both of your babies. Right? Both of yours, baby. The things can get real personal real fast.

Chris [: 00:21:07

Yeah. It can. And I think approaching it with respect, and just putting it out there. You know? Like, saying, like, I'm feeling this way. I'm not liking the way things are going. Be open and honest. You know? Mhmm. And on the flip side, like, if somebody is coming to you with that conversation.

Chris [: 00:21:35

I think it's important to, like, listen and understand what they're trying to say. It's really easy to get defensive and get pissed off and let emotion take hold. And, it's I feel attacked. Yeah. And, you know, like, you gotta respect it. You know? And so on the one side, if you're the one bringing up the conversation, you gotta not be afraid to do it because It needs to be said. It needs to be out in the open. You gotta clear the air.

Chris [: 00:22:10

Do it in a respectful way and not in a condescending or attacking way. If you're on the receiving end of that, I would say just try to, like as you can well up with emotion. And sometimes that can manifest in anger and say, just do whatever you can to try to, like, stay calm, let the person talk, and really try to hear and understand what they're saying and why they're feeling that way. Mhmm. Because It might be one of those things where they wanna part ways because this, this, and this, and this. And you're like, well, I didn't even know that was a problem. It's okay. I can, like, address that.

Chris [: 00:22:54

I'm, Like, I'm not that set in my ways. You know? Like, I'm I'm willing to adjust. And if you never had if you have that conversation, You might not part ways. You know? You might say, well, why don't we just work on that? Or, like, you know what? I've fucking Been feeling the same way for a while too. Yeah. You know? And so just like if you hold things in, it's It's blocking your progress, essentially.

James [: 00:23:22

To to double down on your advice, there's a book. I forget the author. It's called Crucial Conversations. Read I I would advise anyone who's in business to read that book. They even I know they do workshops. They do, like, a 1 or 2 day workshop where they kinda go over the principles of the book and act out conversations. Okay. So You survived the split with a business partner, and now you're stuck, running the show yourself.

James [: 00:23:52

You have all these product offerings, all these service offerings. For so for you, what was the process of of deciding what You excel at what your business excels at. And then once you decided that, what was the rebranding process like for you?

Chris [: 00:24:11

The the first thing that, was the biggest struggle for me was getting good project management help. Mhmm. And I went through 2 or 3 people who, like, crushed it on their interview, and they seemed like the perfect fit. Their culture index dots align perfectly for what we were looking for, like, all of that stuff. Their per culture index is a personality test

James [: 00:24:40

Mhmm.

Chris [: 00:24:40

For those people that don't know, but kinda like What are what are you like a strengths finder kind of.

James [: 00:24:45

What are what what's your profile?

Chris [: 00:24:47

I am an architect profile.

James [: 00:24:49

Persuader.

Chris [: 00:24:49

Really? Yeah. Perfect. I think that's my my wife is a persuader.

James [: 00:24:54

It's the best profile I'm not biased at all.

Chris [: 00:24:56

Yeah. Exactly. So, yeah, I'm, like, definitely much more of, like, a get shit done execution type person. You know, I have a really high, drive, and, I myself am a good project manager, but I I just had trouble hiring for that position.

James [: 00:25:20

So why do you think that is?

Chris [: 00:25:21

We had a lot of services that we were offering and some pretty demanding clients and some pretty high profile clients. And When you're managing logo design, web designs, print ads, Digital media, like, all of these things, like, literally could, like, have their own manager. Mhmm. But I needed somebody who could oversee the whole thing and who had experience and who could operate those things at a high level. And It was and be professional in client communications and

James [: 00:25:59

Oh, wow.

Chris [: 00:26:00

On the ball and on top of shit.

James [: 00:26:02

It's a huge ask.

Chris [: 00:26:03

It's a huge ask, And I just was struggling with that. And that was one of the reasons too. It was like the decision was made to, really pare down our service offerings. I'm like, okay. If we offer video and content creation and we offer social media advertising services, like, that's 2 things. I'm like, I feel like we can manage 2 things. Mhmm. It would be a lot easier to find help.

Chris [: 00:26:35

It'd be a lot easier for everybody and and for us to just kinda narrow our focus. You know?

James [: 00:26:42

So when you're looking at these, did you look at what what were your profit centers versus or was it a waste of time? How how did you make that decision?

Chris [: 00:26:53

Yeah. I mean, that was a big part of it. The more you until you get to a certain level, you know, where you're managing really major, huge accounts, it's hard to maintain profitability whenever you're stretched so thin. Mhmm. Because it's what we do is human capital intensive. So, like, We've gotta pay people to execute all of this stuff. We gotta pay graphic designers. We gotta pay web developers.

Chris [: 00:27:24

We gotta pay digital media buyers. We gotta pay social media managers. We gotta like, all of these services, like, we had to pay people to do. And the 1 person that can do all of that stuff really well is extremely rare and hard to find. And so, yeah, it's like One thing might be profitable 1 month. Like, we might make good margins, like, on web designs, but then, like, this other part slows down a little bit. So it's like It was just really hard for us to maintain that, like, good, healthy profit margin when we were just kinda spread so thin.

James [: 00:28:02

I have some questions. Okay. Alright. So a lot of entrepreneurs and founders that you talk to Who go into business with a partner after they founded their business and are already somewhat successful. Whenever what I found is whenever they offer up is because they can't afford to pay a salary. Is that kind of the situation with Chuck? Yeah. For

Chris [: 00:28:24

sure. Because You want somebody that's gonna run right with you but also operate at a high level. And Someone who is making a 100, $120,000 a year, Why are they gonna leave that? Mhmm. Like, I can't pay that person a $120,000 a year when I'm doing, like, $250,000 in revenue. Like, that doesn't make you just can't do it. Yeah. But to get from there to the next level, They you need somebody to run with that's that can operate at that high level, and offering equity and Bringing in a partner is, like, really sometimes the only way to do that. So, yeah, I mean, I couldn't have ever afforded to Hey, Chuck, and just, like, hire him straight out.

Chris [: 00:29:21

And so, you know, he wanted to be a part of building something, and it worked out. You know? Yeah. While in the end, like, we parted ways, I would say, overall, it worked out.

James [: 00:29:34

Okay. If you had to do it all over again, would you would you finance, that position via loan, or would you give up that equity and and go on the ride again?

Chris [: 00:29:45

Well, right now, where we are right now, I would probably finance it or figure out a way to bring on, a business development person, with a Fair, you know, commission based compensation. But, again, like, anybody that's worth a shit, like, needs pretty decent, maybe, salary. You know? Like Yeah. So, like, in our industry, really, like, for somebody who's operating in a high level, who's gonna bring the type of accounts that's gonna really, like, scale a company. You know? They need at least, like, a $50 base salary plus a nice, like, compensation package, like, commission structure. And so yeah. I mean, we've actually, been in some talks with some people about doing just that. Awesome.

Chris [: 00:30:38

Yeah. Yeah. We just wanted to get some of our operational stuff dialed in and Some of our process and procedures dial down before, you know, we make that leap. But I imagine next year, we'll probably really start seriously, like, Mhmm. Looking for that.

James [: 00:30:57

Thank you for being so, so frank with that answer because I I just I I always see it when you're talking to someone who who founded, and they're they're very quick to give up equity because they need that position filled in order to scale. But There's so many, small business loan programs out there. It's very easy to go down that road to that route too, especially if your numbers are right.

Chris [: 00:31:21

It it is. It's also really damn tricky, dude. Like, I lost my ass on hiring a salesperson, like, right in the COVID times.

James [: 00:31:32

Mhmm.

Chris [: 00:31:32

Like, I mean, he came in, guns blazing. I'm badass. I know what the hell I'm doing. And, You know, $35 and base salary later, he didn't bring in a single deal. Oh, wow. So, like, You just there's risk in everything. You know? And so just because you get a loan and you can pay somebody, doesn't mean they're gonna bring in money. Mhmm.

Chris [: 00:31:59

You know? Like, with Chuck, like, my risk was low. Mhmm. You know? Yes. I was getting giving up equity, but I knew the guy. Like, I knew him well. We were, like, a year and a half together before we did that. So, like, you know, just trying to hire somebody off the street, you know, like, and giving them money to go sell for you. Like, I don't know, man.

Chris [: 00:32:25

I I I think it's a tricky situation. You just gotta be careful.

James [: 00:32:31

You see that a lot, in insurance too. Like, people will negotiate these huge salaries, and a year and a half, 2, 3 years later, They haven't brought in anything, and they're looking to jump to the next shop that'll hire them. And, you know, people will go 10, 12 years in a career that way, just because they're they're really good at selling theirselves, and that's about it.

Chris [: 00:32:54

Yeah. You know? Yeah?

James [: 00:32:56

Okay. Sorry to get distracted, but I wanted to touch on that point with Chuck and and how you guys got in the business together. Right? So we're we're Eliminating products and services. Mhmm. And we're we're how did you come up with Fuel and Spark Media? What was the concept? How did you What was your vision for that moving forward?

Chris [: 00:33:14

I knew I didn't wanna be full service anymore. Like, I just knew I didn't wanna do that. In fact, And my wife and I were, you know, kind of on a trip, and we were doing this vision board stuff. And I love vision boards. Yeah. It was pretty cool exercise, but I was like, I just don't I either wanna, like, get out totally. Mhmm. Or, like, if I'm gonna stay in this, I I don't wanna do all this other shit.

Chris [: 00:33:45

And video production and content creation is something I've always liked to do. It's fun. I enjoy it. And, And at the end of the day, you got something cool to watch, and you could show people on your phone. It's like it's cool.

James [: 00:34:00

I did this.

Chris [: 00:34:00

Yeah. My company did

James [: 00:34:01

this. Yeah.

Chris [: 00:34:02

This is the kind of shit we do. You know? And then the social media advertising was getting really good results for our clients, and it was pretty profitable. Both of those were actually profitable parts of our business. And it just so happened that It was the most fun part and the part that, like, gave our clients the best results. Mhmm. So I started doing research, and I'm like, can we actually have a company that only focuses on these things? Like, is that a viable option? And so I just started talking to people in the industry, talking to clients existing clients, talking to Anybody and everybody who, like, would know a little bit of something about this, and I actually ended up talking to someone who was running a business out of Nashville that just was doing exactly what we wanted to do. And I got hooked up with him and had a phone call with him, and He was like, look, man. Like, we're fucking crushing it here.

Chris [: 00:35:03

And this is what we do. Like, we don't do email marketing. We don't do this. Don't do that. We don't do this. We don't even touch that. And I'm like, oh my god. That sounds so awesome.

Chris [: 00:35:12

And so Mhmm. That kinda gave me the confidence to pursue it and move forward with it.

James [: 00:35:17

That's awesome. You know, there's, in b school, they, they gave an example of someone walking down of, frozen foods out. Then they see, oh, there's there's 40 versions of frozen pizza, so they'll go look at the frozen pizza market, and they're like, hey. The frozen pizza market is $5,000,000,000 a year. So if I can just create a frozen pizza brand and Capture 0.001% of that, I'm gonna make all this money. More in reality, you do a little bit of research. You see the market saturated. So I I love that you actually did a bunch of research Before deciding that's that's a a lot of entrepreneurs and founders really need to do a lot of that.

Chris [: 00:35:56

Yeah. We did. I did a bunch of research, and I even paid for some, like, coaching and consulting and stuff like that because I wanted to make sure, like, making the right call, you know, and doing this right. And we had a bunch of shit lined up too. Like, going into March of 2020, You know? We had shoots booked for, a client at Texas Motor Speedway for the NASCAR races, and we were gonna go spend, 4 days shooting content for a record label down at South by Southwest, and we had, other stuff lined up for other clients. And so we, like, had everything lined up to ramp up and move into this thing and be aggressive

James [: 00:36:44

and, like,

Chris [: 00:36:45

yeah. And, like, really, like, launch, you know? Mhmm. And then the pandemic happened and that, You know? Like, it it was just, I mean, it was like slamming into a brick wall pretty much. You know? Like and And so I think the fight, fighting through, you know, like, those 2 years or so of COVID Mhmm. Was really it was challenging, but, You know? We we persisted and moved through it, learned a lot. And then right after that, going into the 10 k small business program. Mhmm. You know? Like, that kind of gave us or gave me even more of a skill set to, like, take this thing to the next level.

James [: 00:37:41

Well, what kind of stuff did you learn, a, During COVID, trying to survive that, which obviously you did. You're thriving now, and then the 10 k small business program after that.

Chris [: 00:37:51

So Going through COVID, I I coulda gone 1 of 2 ways, and I probably went the wrong way. Right? I coulda just stopped and been like, okay. Let's see what the fuck's going on here. I'm not gonna bring on anybody. I'm gonna cut all employees. I'm gonna not gonna pay anybody. I'm just gonna,

James [: 00:38:10

A lot of companies did that.

Chris [: 00:38:11

Yeah. I'm just I'm gonna stop and let the scene play out and see how it goes. And, I didn't do that. I because, so many people were moving to, Like, video was actually getting to be more and more important for companies to market themselves. Mhmm. But so I brought in like, that's when I lost my ass on the salesperson. And I brought in people to, like, you know, help, like, power through it. You know? Had the PPP money, so we were okay.

Chris [: 00:38:47

But I was just like I kinda had the mindset of screw it. Like, we're gonna fucking do this no matter what. And so we just, like, You know, kinda like running uphill, dragging an anchor behind us. You know? Just, like, plowing forward, doing anything and everything that we could to create content, for ourselves, you know, to create content. Because we had the plan. Like, we had the things in place to, like, build up our portfolio, like, as we were launching. We didn't have an extensive video production portfolio. And so, All of the things that we had lined up for March, April, and May that we had already sold was also gonna be building up our momentum in our portfolio to, like, help us launch, and we just didn't have that at all.

Chris [: 00:39:33

We didn't really have an ability to create a portfolio during 2020. You know? Right? And so At that point, like, I probably should've called time out, but we didn't. We just kept plowing forward. So that leads me into, like, the 10 k small business where it's, like, we just kept grinding and grinding and grinding. I'm glad we did in some ways because We were able to put together we were able to learn a lot about our craft.

James [: 00:40:01

Is that is that a paid program?

Chris [: 00:40:03

No. It's very selective, though. They they think out of they have 2, cohorts a year in Dallas. And out of, like, a couple 100 applications, they select, like, 30 people. Oh, wow. So you you gotta go for in person interviews. You gotta be able to dedicate a shitload of time to it. Like, it it's not for the faint of heart.

Chris [: 00:40:23

Like, it's a it's an intense program.

James [: 00:40:27

Sounds awesome.

Chris [: 00:40:28

It's incredible. Like, I I wish that that kind of content could be available to anybody who's trying to start or run a business. And it's great too because you have anywhere well, I think you have to be in business for 2 years, but, you have people that are doing anywhere from, like, $150,000 in revenue all the way up to, like, Five to $10,000,000 in revenue going through the program. And so, like, not only do you learn a lot from their curriculum and their coaches and their business advisers, but you learn a lot from the other people that are in the class with you, and you develop strong, strong bonds with those people. But it just makes, you know, all around better business owner. And so after, you know, just, like, plowing through the last few years, after going through the 10 k small biz and we weren't very profitable during those few years. You know? We were kinda burning through money. And so we after I went through that program, like, we kinda, like, decided to let some people go and focus on delivering exceptional work for the clients that we had and that we have, and also the business that's coming on organically, just focused, like, on quality, and we needed to streamline some of our own processes and things like that.

Chris [: 00:42:12

Mhmm. And, you know, we're currently in the process of, like, rebranding and redesigning our website and all of that kind of stuff. And I don't wanna say rebranding because we're not changing our name or our logo, but just refreshing our image and our messaging and all that kind of stuff.

James [: 00:42:27

Your videos are amazing. Now how how did you go about creating that that type of vibe? Is how intentional are you around that?

Chris [: 00:42:35

Well, Everything is intentional. And I would say that, stylistically, I think we had Some similar types of clients that kind of were looking for a similar vibe. But, You know? We have some things that we've been behind on posting on our website that have a little more of a softer or a more feminine type of feel and things like that so in my all of my years of doing creative work, I actually try not to have, like, a distinctive, style because the style needs to reflect the brand of our client. Mhmm. You know? So if we have a a sports client or a whiskey client or, you know, these really kinda, like, cool, like, you know, Masculine more masculine kind of things or might have a similar type of feel. But if you have, you know, like an interior design shop or, you know, something that's more we're doing some work right now for, this product that's geared toward, you know, like, 8 to 12 year old girls. Those videos are gonna have a very, very

James [: 00:43:57

I see no joke.

Chris [: 00:43:57

Feel then what's on like, the things that are on our website now. And so, yeah, it we just kinda, like, really try to make sure that the creative matches the brand and what our clients are trying to portray.

James [: 00:44:16

Yeah. That's awesome. Yeah. So I have a question. And, you know, the whole point of this podcast is for people to learn from your journey. And I it's a 2 part question. Me being in sales also, I take it personal when when someone gets burnt on a salesperson. So If someone is goo going about hiring a salesperson, what advice would you give them? And then also, what if Someone is going to start a business or is in the middle of starting a business or young entrepreneur, what do you think your main piece of advice would be to them Along their journey based on your experience.

Chris [: 00:44:54

Alright. The first question on hiring a salesperson, in my experience, is don't overextend yourself. Make them prove that they can sell. You know? Like, I won't bring on a salesperson that doesn't have strong connections, like, in our industry, like, in advertising and marketing industry. You know? So if they have relationships with advertising agencies and marketing directors and brands and things like that. So That's why I go to industry events. I go to American Marketing Association events, American I'm on the board of the American Advertising local chapter, and, you know, go to PRSA events and public relations society events. And, so whenever I decide to bring in somebody in that role.

Chris [: 00:45:55

I'm gonna make sure they're well connected in the industry, and I'm gonna make sure that they can actually bring in business. And and then I'm also, like, gonna go with my gut because I think a lot of times, I've gone with what I feel when I lost my ass on the dude I hire, the salesperson I did hire, I knew in my gut within the 1st 2 weeks that this is probably a bad deal. Mhmm. And I gave him the opportunity to prove me wrong, and I got Fucked. Can I say that?

James [: 00:46:32

You say whatever you want.

Chris [: 00:46:34

And so I I shoulda just I should've just gone with my gut and being like, dude, this is not gonna work. This is not gonna work, man. I I'm sorry. I think you're a great human, but and the telltale sign was, so I'm so stupid. The lessons learned. Right?

James [: 00:46:56

Lessons learned. Yeah.

Chris [: 00:46:57

So listen to this podcast and don't make these mistakes. Right? But, you know, I sent him to a networking thing, and it was one of the very first in person networking things post COVID. Like, the I mean, everybody was just so, like, ready, you know, to, like, get together and do business with each other and all that. And, he went to this thing, and And afterwards, I was like, how many leads did you get, man? He's like, oh, I didn't get any leads. I'm like, how'd you not get any leads? I mean, you were in, like, You were in the same room with, like, a 100 entrepreneurs for, like, 2 days. Like, you shouldn't get any leads. He's like, well, I wasn't trying to, like, I was just trying to make relationships and things like that.

James [: 00:47:42

Yeah. Those are called leads.

Chris [: 00:47:43

And then I'm like I'm like, did you ask anybody if they're they need our services? Are they interested? Are They using anybody? Like, I was like, and after that, I shoulda just, like I shoulda cut it off, like, right then and there because any salesperson that's worth a salt would've came back. And with at least 2 or 3 people, like, I'm gonna reach out to them. I think we got a chance with them. I think we're gonna, like, it might not be anything big, but, like, we can get something, and it can lead to something else. And Mhmm. When he came back and with nothing, with a zero goose egg, I should just go with your gun, man. Like, dude, because it'll save you a lot of money and a lot of frustration.

James [: 00:48:30

When people show you who they are, you gotta believe them.

Chris [: 00:48:33

Yeah. And it the dude was a good dude. Like, I was buddies with it. He's like a good guy. You know? But he just wasn't he wasn't a hustling a hustler. He wasn't a sales guy.

James [: 00:48:44

Yeah. Okay. So for the next part of the question

Chris [: 00:48:48

Can you repeat it?

James [: 00:48:51

What are you? Busy or something? Yeah. So what's your number one takeaway that someone could learn from from your story and your experience On their own journey? Get

Chris [: 00:49:06

reach out and find resources. Like, if you're in the very beginning stages of starting a business Mhmm. Find a mentor, but also, like, Find your business resources in your local community. Right? Like, most most cities of any kind of size and even small towns, They have, like, a business assistance center or some sort of entrepreneurial center or something. Mhmm. Like, Go there. Meet those people. Figure out what the resources are that are around you to help you get started.

Chris [: 00:49:45

Because, like I said, when I started the business, I didn't go and get an MBA. You know? And I didn't go to any kind of business school at all. I just was like, I'm good at this, and I can do it. You know? And I wish that I would have known about the resources that existed at the time, And, I would just implore anyone to, like, don't be afraid to reach out, ask people for help. And, it's funny. I was in a I was at a an event with a with a great speaker, actually, but he did this really interesting thing. He asked the whole crowd. He said, Everybody, raise your hand if you like to help people.

Chris [: 00:50:38

Everybody in the crowd raised their hand, like, 100 people. Right? Mhmm. And then he's like, raise your hand if you like asking people for help. And, like, 5 hands showed up. You know? It's like It's like, why is there this disconnect of, like, if everybody likes to help each other, like, why Isn't everybody raising their hand where like, why do we feel like it's not okay to ask

James [: 00:51:03

for help? It's it's ego, and people are embarrassed to admit that they need help. Yeah.

Chris [: 00:51:07

Are they don't be afraid to ask for help. Don't be afraid to get into, some sort of an accelerator program or, anything like that because it it'll speed up your process, and it'll help you tremendously. Awesome.

James [: 00:51:25

Good stuff, man.

Chris [: 00:51:26

Cool.

James [: 00:51:28

Well, I appreciate you coming by. This has been Business Blind Spots. And if for any information on Chris, we will have all of his contacts in our show notes. You can look up his LinkedIn. We'll drop his website And all that good stuff. And if you need any, business marketing and video help and resources, he is the man. I'm also excited to see your new brand roll out, And, I'm sure it's gonna be awesome stuff. So I appreciate you, man.

James [: 00:51:55

Thank you.

Chris [: 00:51:56

Thanks for having me. I appreciate